How Stefan Mancevski uses Hubspot, Funnel, and Ahrefs at Ladder.io



Stefan Mancevski

Stefan Mancevski
Director of Marketing at Ladder.io


Ladder.io is a growth technology and services agency that uses proprietary technology and data-driven strategy to increase your ROI.

For this session, Stefan Mancevski Director of Marketing at Ladder.io shares how his team uses:

Transcript

Jayme Tsutsuse: Hey guys, this is Jayme Tsutsue at Ladder, it's a pleasure to welcome my colleague, Stefan Mancevski, who runs marketing and is gonna share with us today some of the strategy and tools we're using internally here at Ladder. Stefan, for context how would you quickly describe what we do at Ladder?

Stefan Mancevski: Sure, so, Ladder's a growth technology and services company. We use data-driven marketing strategy to grow businesses of all sizes, from venture-funded startups to the Fortune 500, and we do that using internal technology that we call the Ladder Planner.

Jayme Tsutsuse: How would you describe our ideal clients?

Stefan Mancevski: Our ideal clients are just those two, basically, venture-funded startups that have some growth efforts currently in place and want to take them to the next level, or enterprises that want to have the flexibility of a startup mindset of marketing without all the red tape and in-between on the growth side.

It's split up between those two that I spoke about. One is the venture-funded startups and any startup, really, that currently has some growth efforts in place but wants to take them to the next level. Then the other is an enterprise that either wants to launch a new product or wants to avoid the red tape and difficulty of some of the internal processes around marketing.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Before we jump into your stack, can you give the viewers a sense of how our marketing strategy and funnel looks today?

Stefan Mancevski: Sure, so from the very top we use a lot of ad words and Facebook advertising to drive leads into our funnel as well as content being a major driver both on the lead gen and on the sales nurturing side. From there, it's a healthy mix of email drips, content, of course the work that you do on the sales side, to help nurture a potential prospect into a full client.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Cool. What tools do you feel are the must-have parts of our marketing stack?

Stefan Mancevski: Yeah, so it all starts and ends for us in the Ladder Planner and that's the internal tool that we use to manage our growth process. From there it's all about HubSpot and Funnel, those two are kind of the most important parts of our stack, where HubSpot lets us track lead gen and do all of our email drips, while Funnel lets us track cost per lead, cost per qualified lead, and import all the data from all the different ad platforms directly into it.

Beyond that, some useful tools that we use are Ahrefs, I'm not to sure how to say it, but Zapier has been really good for connecting all of our tools to one another. We use Unbounce for landing pages, and it's probably the easiest landing page builder that we've used. There's Drift, and we use the Drift bot on our blog to do some of that lead gen qualifying that we do on our homepage directly on the blog.

**Jayme Tsutsuse: ** Let's go ahead and screen-share, now.

Stefan Mancevski: This is HubSpot. How we do qualified lead email workflows and if it's all right with you, ill dive a little bit into first how we qualify leads, just so that it makes sense why we have this work force app.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Cool, let's jump in.

Stefan Mancevski: Cool, so, a few months ago we were having this issue where sales team was super slammed and had tons of, pretty much, unqualified intro calls that prevented any sort of down-funnel activity from having real, proper attention paid to it. We decided to create a qualification workflow that was directly on our website.

Once you submit your email, we immediately capture that and it's sent to our contacts list in HubSpot, and then from there, on the site, a little questionnaire pops up, asking people for some information on what their industry is, what their growth goals are, what their marketing budget is, and then what their monthly revenue is. Based off of those questions, we assign a score from one to ten, and we've tested this, that score being ... we initially started with five and up being a qualified lead, and after testing we found that four and up is actually a qualified lead for us. Then, based off of that, we created this lead workflow.

In the background, what happens is, based on the score that a person gets, they're either given a qual value of zero or one. Zero being unqualified and one being qualified, and then you can see on the screen-share, the enrollment triggers. If the contact qualifications is both known and is equal to one, then they're added to, enrolled in, specifically, this qualified lead workflow.

From there, we have a bunch of if/then branches set up where, if we know that someone has already booked a meeting with us, we don't necessarily want to spam their email asking for them to book a meeting. If they have booked a meeting then they go to this no section, but if they have not, then we send them our first email drip, and so on and so forth. It's kind of the same thing, the real goal of this drip is to get a meeting booked with sales.

If we kind of zoom out on this view to look at what kind of goes on in the background, it gets a little crazy as it goes, but all of this is kind of contextualized through different triggers to make sure that we're not redundantly sending a bunch of emails to people and just getting them to unsubscribe through frustration. If you look at the full trend, we have different emails for mobile versus SaaS versus eComm versus B2B. Making sure that we're properly personalizing for everyone.

**Jayme Tsutsuse: ** Cool. How does this compare to the system that was previously set up for this lead workflow?

Stefan Mancevski: Yeah, so, previously, we didn't have any form of qualification for leads and actually for a while we were missing out on a lot of opportunities that weren't clear, like, okay, follow up with this lead because they're really high-quality even if they haven't booked the call yet. I was doing a lot of that research manually, and then flagging for sales that this was a lead that needed more attention, and then on the tech side, it was actually through Zapier we were sending our ... we were sending leads into MailChimp and then MailChimp did no real additional contextualization, there were no real triggers set up or anything like that for qualified versus unqualified. Everyone was getting the same exact email drip. That worked for a while, but realistically it wasn't the right way to build a scalable marketing and sales funnel.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Switching over from MailChimp to HubSpot, how long did that implementation take?

Stefan Mancevski: Well, kind of from the ideation stage of figuring out the whole lead workflow and qualification and all those details to then having our development team code up the workflow on the website and then pushing it live and then making the full switch from MailChimp to HubSpot, I'd say the grand total of it took about three months, maybe four months worth of time? If we're just talking about switching over from MailChimp to HubSpot after all the workflow stuff was set up in the background, I would say maybe about three to four weeks, total?

Jayme Tsutsuse: Awesome. So what are some of your favorite or least favorite features about ... because obviously HubSpot has a lot of features, but I'm thinking about this area where we can score leads, we can drop them into different workflows, what are some of the features that you like or some that you maybe like less about this feature?

Stefan Mancevski: So, I think the biggest thing that I really like about all of this is the fact that we can have all these contextualized triggers based off of the information that we bring in through our lead workflow. It's been invaluable to just decrease the number of unqualified calls that we have every month, also the ability to know that all this information that we're gathering on our website is being stored somewhere, and specifically in contact information in HubSpot, so that we can go back and refer to it at any time.

It's really helped with kind of figuring out the true return on investment in marketing, 'cause prior to implementing this system, MailChimp wasn't really enough for us to figure out dollar for dollar how each of our different campaigns in each of our different channels actually performing when it comes to signing on new clients and that's completely changed since we started this new workflow system.

On the what I don't like side, there are a few quirks and bugs and issues that just kind of frustrate, they're not game-breaking in any way, but realistically, just the fact that we use HubSpot's meeting booking system but sometimes it overwrites UTM parameters that came in through when the lead originally signed up, which is really frustrating because sometimes those UTM parameters are the only thing that we have to go by when it comes to whether a lead came in through one channel or another.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Luckily, we capture those in Slack and email, also.

Stefan Mancevski: That is true.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Cool. Let's jump into the next tool. In reference to how we're using HubSpot to capture source data and more information about our leads, can you just show us how we're doing that in the HubSpot CRM?

Stefan Mancevski: Sure. If we go into our contacts information, here, we'll see a full list of all the different leads that have come in through the website and through other sources, but we'll also see the important stuff, which is when was this lead created. Then we can use that to cross-reference back to Google Analytics in case there's no UTM parameter available, but then also the UTM parameters that we have captured alongside our naming conventions for campaigns.

Beyond that, we can also see what actual score a lead might have gotten, so, this lead, for example, through our growth hacking campaign, specifically from our campaign focused on the European market, got a nine and got a one on the qual side, so they were put into our qualified lead work flow. If we scroll over a little more, we can actually see all the different answers that they gave.

For that lead, specifically, we found out that they were an eCommerce business, so from that they got, I believe, two points. We found that they spend more than 10,000 a month on marketing budget, so from that they got four points, so that adds up to six. Their monthly revenue is 100,000 plus, so from that they got three points. That adds up to the nine that we saw before. Just the ability to see all of this information up front has been completely game-changing on the sales side, because we know exactly what a lead wants to hear about when they get on a call.

This lead specifically wants to focus on growth goals for traffic and conversion, retention is not a big deal for them, and any kind of recommendations that we might make in the sales call process or in the growth audit process would focus on traffic and conversion goals.

Jayme Tsutsuse: One question, in going through ... or that change with lead flow, maybe you could tell us a little bit more about ... you mentioned that now we have multiple steps where we're asking these questions, getting this information. Beforehand, what did it look like and did you see any changes in that conversion rate to lead based on those changes?

Stefan Mancevski: Beforehand all we did was, when you go to Ladder.io, there's a form at the top. All it asks for is your email. We have a business email filter script, so that you're required to enter a business email, and then once you hit "talk to a strategist" or whatever CTA copy we have for the submit button at the time, that email gets sent from Zapier to MailChimp and then you start getting a call qualification workflow.

The difference now is that Zapier sends it to HubSpot, HubSpot then decides based off of we have a bit of a waiting period so that all the answers can come in from the workflow and then based off of the score, HubSpot can decide, okay this will go into the qualified lead workflow, this will go into the unqualified lead workflow.

Realistically, since we're still capturing the email at the very first step, that hasn't decreased any sort of lead gen numbers. We're still getting the same or higher volume of leads than we did in the past, however, now we can better prioritize leads that actually tell us more about their business rather than ones that don't go out of their way to give us that information.

On the other end, though, we don't want ... sometimes enterprise individuals might not want to go through a lead workflow after handing over their email, and so we have ... we use HubSpot's predictive lead scoring based off of the HubSpot Enrichment Annual Revenue deal to then give a contact a qualified or unqualified number if they've given us no data whatsoever. For example, let's say Proctor & Gamble comes in, submits our lead form but doesn't do any of the qualification lead workflow steps, their revenue is in the billion dollar plus range, and HubSpot has that information, and so we'll be able to grab that information and use that as a qualification for sending them into the qualified lead workflow.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Awesome. Have you seen any situations happen where you sent the non-qualified email to a qualified lead?

Stefan Mancevski: Rarely. But they have happened a couple of times. Usually that happens because the data in HubSpot might be incorrect about annual revenue, and they also didn't fill out our lead workflow. That happens so rarely that it hasn't actually come up as a major issue. Honestly, it was a fear in the first month or two of running this, but it's been, I believe four months, five months, now since we implemented it and it's been pretty smooth sailing.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Yeah, if I remember correctly, we sent an unqualified email to a hundred billion dollar company, once. That's when we made that change.

Stefan Mancevski: I believe that was probably the right reason to make that change. Sometimes hundred billion dollar companies aren't fully qualified.

Jayme Tsutsuse: We're still speaking with them, so.

Stefan Mancevski: That is true, yeah.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Awesome. Let's jump into the next tool. What do you have for us?

Stefan Mancevski: The next one is Zapier and it's kind of the functional backbone of all the different things that go on on our website. This kind of lets us grab the information that we get on our website and then funnel it over to HubSpot. Part of that is done in an automated way directly on the website, but some of that information needs to go through Zapier. We have a whole bunch of different triggers that happen. For example, if someone submits an email on Ladder.io, that is sent to the HubSpot CRM and then there's a bunch of steps in the background that also make it collect all the information that we're sending from the lead form into HubSpot.

We like to use Slack as a way to keep an eye on the leads that are coming in, and we want all new leads from the website to be sent directly to Slack, with a notification calling out the fact that a new lead came in and all of the different information from the UTM sources is also funneled into that.

All of this has been useful for us to consistently keep an eye on, in real time, what's going on, while also sending all the information that we gather from our website and from lead ads on Facebook and elsewhere directly to our CRM.

Jayme Tsutsuse: What's been the most life-saving Zap recipe that's set up right now?

Stefan Mancevski: I think that two of them are really important. One of them, obviously, is the one that is the backbone for the lead form, so it sends the email to Ladder.io, leads to HubSpot's CRM, without that nothing would work.

The other is the ability to funnel lead ads, leads, from Facebook into MailChimp. So we don't actually use this for actual leads, we use this for newsletter signups, but we've gotten hundreds of newsletter signups paying very low cost for the lead ads. This is the only way to automate the way that we send them into MailChimp. That's been life-saving. I honestly don't like going into Facebook lead ads, downloading a CSof all the leads and then sending them into MailChimp myself. Any amount of time saved is more than amazing.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Can you walk us through the ... since we were just in HubSpot, you know how that looks like as a result, can you walk us through how that recipe that Zap is set up?

Stefan Mancevski: Sure, so if I click into it, what you can see is, first we have a catch hook, this is coded kind of in the background but it catches different information that's posted onto our website and then there are a bunch of different options that I can't really go into detail myself because I didn't do any of the setup. That then ends up creating or updating a contact in HubSpot, so this is connected to our HubSpot CRM and we have a template so the contact emails is collected, the contact's UTM source, campaign, medium, and I believe term as well. Then if we decide to add any other information that we wanna gather to that form, all of that can be sent directly into HubSpot through Zapier. Finally, a channel message is sent to Slack, as well as all the different information that we collected from the lead form through this catch hook it's sent to HubSpot.

Jayme Tsutsuse: How long did it take to set this up?

Stefan Mancevski: I actually don't know, because this was set up separately from my workflow, it was set up by our dev team, but the grand total of getting everything on the technical side set up took about two months.
That includes the whole lead workflow as well as everything else.

Jayme Tsutsuse: How long does a typical Zap take to set up?

Stefan Mancevski: A typical Zap will take maybe like five minutes to set up, but the way it actually works is instantaneous, so no need to worry on the background there.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Are there any ... it sounds really powerful, connecting platforms that don't directly speak to each other, are there any limitations to that or any areas within the platform that you feel like you're facing some of those limitations?

Stefan Mancevski: Within Zapier itself, not really too much. I think it's more of the different limitations on the different tools and how they interact with Zapier, and what kind of information you can push between them. That kind of relies on how the actual tool is created and then how those different API integrations are developed, both on Zapier's side and on the tools side.

Then the other thing being that, I have honestly all these web hooks are beyond me, so I'll usually have to get dev help to get them done.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Awesome, so let's jump into the next tool, what do you have for us?

Stefan Mancevski: The next one on the list is Funnel.io. This is where we track all of the different channels and sources for both paid and organic traffic, and then lead generation. That lets us do things like cost calculations to see the total cost of our lead gen efforts for a given month as well as cost per lead and breakdown by channel. I can kind of click into one of these and you'll be able to see we have, across all channels this is the kind of spend that we're tracking towards and then if we look at historic data on ... that's Facebook ads, Google ads, this is where we can see what we're spending and ... yeah, it's been a life-saver for keeping track of our spend and making sure that we're not going crazy with overspending beyond our budget, as well as making sure that we're tracking well on the cost-per-lead, cost-per-qualified-lead side.

I think that Funnel is one of the most important background tools that we have, it's not one that I'm in every single day, but it is one that I look at at least once a week when I'm doing recording for performance as well as just to kinda keep track of our budget situation.

If we look at all the different data sources that we have for ad accounts, we have AdWords, we have Bing, Facebook, we have LinkedIn, and we have Quora. If we wanna add more advertising accounts, they've got tons, and tons, and tons of them, so everything that you might need to directly connect and track spend, you can do all of that in funnel. It's been really, really useful.

Jayme Tsutsuse: What did you do beforehand to track spend, specifically?

Stefan Mancevski: We've been using Funnel since, I believe, before I joined Ladder. We've been using it since day one and it kind of ... taking the time to get used to it at the beginning when I first joined was a bit weird because I was also ... we had some issues around tracking lead sources and also client sources and all that. That's kind of out of the way now that HubSpot is working really well. I'd say Funnel is a lot more useful now in conjunction with HubSpot and Zapier, but for sure, I've been using it for a while to make sure that cost is on track.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Do you also use this with clients?

Stefan Mancevski: Yeah, it's something that we use for pretty much every single one of our clients to make sure that we're not ever spending outside of their budget, and it's built directly into our proprietary tech platform, where we manage all of our client work. Everything that we do is extremely open and transparent, whenever a client wants to go in and see spend and see performance, they can go into our platform. All the data is pulled through Funnel and then contextualized for them based off of the tests we're running, and so, yeah, this has been the tool that we use the most on the back end to pull all the data that we need from different platforms.

Jayme Tsutsuse: How long does implementation take? Say there's a new client and we're getting them set up in Funnel, how long does that typically take?

Stefan Mancevski: Depends on how quick the client is about giving us access to all the different tools that we need to integrate, so some clients are really quick and it's a really painless process, some clients take a little bit more time because they need to make sure that they don't give out passwords that they shouldn't be giving out, or anything like that. Once we have all the login information that we need and all the access information that we need, each individual platform takes, really, a couple of minutes to set up in Funnel and once it's done you can easily troubleshoot connections and all that.

Jayme Tsutsuse: What are some of the favorite features that you have Funnel and maybe some of the least favorites or limitations of the platform?

Stefan Mancevski: I think that my favorite feature is definitely the cost-tracking. Just being able to see cost-per-lead across different channels and then also a raw cost. The one feature that I don't really use enough, I'm not gonna say this is a bad feature or anything, this is just one that I should be using but I'm not, is their dashboard view. The dashboards that we have set up are pretty simple and limited so far, and I think I can do a lot more with that.

Jayme Tsutsuse: What does the dashboard view do?

Stefan Mancevski: It just lets you create different charts and dashboards, kind of like what you saw, it's all of these costs and then dashboards and all that, that we can set up. Currently they're not in a great spot, so there's plenty that I can do on my end, here to make this more useful.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Let's jump into the next platform, then. What do we have?

Stefan Mancevski: The next one that I use on a pretty regular basis is Ahrefs or A.H refs, I'm not really sure exactly how to say their name, but either way it's a brilliant tool. It's probably my favorite. SEO and content tracking and analytics and it's kind of all third party data, obviously, but this tool has been really useful for keeping on an eye on back links to our blog and our homepage and to see how we're tracking as far as referring domains and our web ranking and understanding exactly why we are or are not getting spikes or downturns in organic traffic from search engines.

This is kind of like a full dashboard view of exactly what we're looking at. We can see that, this is nice, over the past about a week, we've had a spike of about 200 new referring pages. Then we can see new and lost referring domains, anyone that's back linking us based off of the blog posts that we were putting out.

Yeah, the nice thing about it we can see a full, historical tracking of, like, how Ahrefs actually ranks us compared to other websites that they're tracking. It gives us a domain rating and a URL rating. Lets us know, even if this data isn't exactly perfect when it comes to the comparison of what Google might be looking at and what their crawler bot might be looking at, versus what Ahrefs and their crawlers are looking at, even if it's not a one-to-one, it's definitely more information than Google has ever provided. We can see a lot more here than anywhere else.

For example, if I wanna see what the latest back links are back to our blog or our website, I can hit "new back links" here, and see that oh, great, on the 16th we got five new back links. We can also see what exactly they were, so there's an odd site here, but we can see that we've been linked by a few websites over the past day or so. Then monthly views as well.

Then, beyond that, we can also head back to the dashboard and look at information about peak search. This is actually less useful for us, directly, you can see some of the ads that we're running that they've pulled in, and kind of the top keywords that we're using. This is a little bit more useful for competitor analysis, so if I wanted to, like ... or specifically for when we're doing audits for clients to find out how their competitors are actually doing in paid search, I would enter the URL of that competitor and then figure out, okay, these are the ads they're running, this is the ad copy they're running. What is it that we can learn from this?

**Jayme Tsutsuse: ** So there's a lot of information, here. What is a typical ... how often are you coming into this platform and what are the key places that you look at, what does that workflow look like?

**Stefan Mancevski: ** I wouldn't go on this platform on a day to day basis, I would do it maybe once a week or once every other week. Part of that is, the most important thing that I do here is do back link tracking and then just kind of SEO health and link health. The biggest things that I'll do are look at the back link profile to see what's going on there, have we lost or gained any really big new back links? Sometimes someone will write about you but not really tell you, but it becomes a valuable back link, so you might wanna find out who they are and then send them a thank-you. See if they're ... maybe they're willing to do a content partnership or something? Really double down on the fact that they're interested in your content so it would be a good idea to continue that in the form of a partnership.

Then the other thing that I would do is use their keywords explorer to explore keywords both for our PPC campaigns, to see potentially what kind of PPC keywords we might want to target as well as for the types of blog posts that we wanna write. One of the things that has made our blog successful from the beginning on the SEO side is the fact that we go directly after keywords and terms that have some sort of traffic. We don't just wanna write good content, obviously, that's number one and that's the most important, but we also wanna write good content that is on relevant topics that people actually wanna read about. Some topics, even if we have a lot to say about them, nobody really would want to read about them, so finding a way to both find the right keyword as well as find the right approach for that article, this keywords explorer would help us with that.

Jayme Tsutsuse: I know there are some other SEO tools that we've use when we audit companies, how does this compare to some of the others and why do you like this one?

Stefan Mancevski: Yeah, so, we use things like SpyFu for similar comparisons between competitors and learning PPC and organic performance and all that. I'd say on the SEO and organic side, Ahrefs is the most valuable, in my mind, but the biggest thing about all these tools is that they're all really, really good at one thing and then competent at everything else. Sometimes it's better to just do individual tools that are really, really good at one thing and then combine that information into a single overall profile or overall audit of a company.

Jayme Tsutsuse: You mentioned that we do use this tool sometimes with our clients, when we wanna look at how their competitors are doing or do some keyword research, and you mentioned that we do audits. Can you tell me a little bit more about that process.

Stefan Mancevski: Sure, so kind of as part of our ... as part of our onboarding process for any new partnership that we find with the client is this whole audit process. We don't just use our [inaudible 00:30:51] SEO tools like SpyFu or anything like that, we do a full audit of all of their marketing activity, whether that's SEO, whether that's paid, whether that's partnerships. We just wanna make sure that we're on the right page, on the same page with them and that we can identify all their right opportunities to drive growth.

Anything from using their Google Analytics to identify parts of their funnel and parts of their website that might be underperforming, or performing really well that we can double down on, to looking at all of their ads platforms and also looking at SEO tools to make sure that we're getting a full picture of their marketing activity.

Jayme Tsutsuse: All right, let's jump into the next tool. What do we got here?

Stefan Mancevski: Cool. This is gonna be the final one that I talk about, and it's Unbounce. Unbounce is a landing page builder, this is kind of the back-end view, where you can see some of the landing pages that we've built out. Really, what this does for us, is it lets us build out really custom pages for different tests that we wanna run, whether that's a test on a PPC keyword to see if a landing page that has copy that's more specific to that keyword results in cheaper clicks as well as cheaper qualified leads. Then through testing things like a potential rebrand for Ladder or running gated content landing pages, or running sign-up systems for our Ladder Planner, which is the internal tool that we use to manage our growth process for clients.

We use Unbounce a lot for our clients as well, because we found that performance for PPC campaigns tends to be better when a page that someone is landing on from that ad is a lot more relevant to the ad itself and to the copy that's in the ad as well as the keyword. Unbounce has been invaluable in that sense. Creating a new page, I don't do much of that myself, it's our designer, design director, they're the ones that do all of that work, we just give them detailed briefs on what they need to put together. Then the final product looks pretty good.

I can actually show you one of those landing pages. This is kind of a page that we built for the Ladder Planner and it talks about what the benefit of the Ladder Planner is, as co-pilot for your marketing performance, tracking, and how we use it with clients. Then just talk about how we combine strategy technology to execute data-driven marketing.

All of these pages are tremendously easy to build and very quick and simple. They're very powerful for PPC campaigns, for different goals that we may have. Unbounce just lets us do that really quickly and efficiently.

Jayme Tsutsuse: What kind of data can you get on that landing page performance with Unbounce?

Stefan Mancevski: You can get information on how many visitors that page got, as well as how many conversions. The other nice thing about it is you can set up hidden fields directly within the form, so that things like UTM sources can be funneled directly into the conversion data. The other nice thing is, you can track your conversion rate for that page.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Are you able to set up A/B test, or can you show us a little bit about what that editor looks like?

Stefan Mancevski: Okay. Here you can see there's like a A/B test center, where you can create different variants of the same landing page and then test them against each other to see which one performs better. I haven't done much of that for this page, but yeah, it's one that ... it's really easy to set up A/B tests and kind of copy over the different landing pages that you have and make little changes or big changes. Could be full redesign or it could just be CTA copy or anything like that.

If you actually click into the variant, and click to edit it, you can see exactly how that looks and once this loads you can see ... now, there are some issues, and you're probably gonna ask me what's annoying about this platform, the issues are that directly within the editor, it doesn't actually pull the fonts that we wanna use, the different branded fonts. It comes out a little bit wonky like this. There are some issues about the transition between desktop and mobile, but usually that's figured out by our designers. By the time that a landing page gets into our Slack and they say it's done, it's usually perfect and there's no need for either the strategist or myself to do any work, here.

All of this is really easy to put together, the vast majority of these segments and buttons and everything are drag-and-drop elements, and then all the CSS and color and backgrounds and all that stuff are easy to insert through properties and page properties. Then, finally, you can set up things like a goal, the goal being here, clicking to talk to a strategist link, that leads to Ladder.io.

You can do things like event tracking, set up different pieces of JavaScript code, so I can email filter or tracking scripts from HubSpot or even tracking scripts from AdWords or Facebook Ads or anything like that. All of that information will be funneling directly into and platform of your choice.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Did you evaluate other landing page tools other than Unbounce or have you?

Stefan Mancevski: Recently we evaluated HubSpot's landing page tool, as part of the HubSpot marketing system and that's also a really powerful landing page builder, but we found that the comfort of the eco-system in Unbounce has been ... has resulted in us sticking with it. That said, there are a lot of tests that we wanna run with the HubSpot landing page builder as well, since it plugs directly into HubSpot's CRM. Obviously, Unbounce also plugs into the HubSpot CRM, but it's a little bit less native of a plugin.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Just in thinking about ... you mentioned also using this with our clients, so one way would be if we're doing an AdWords campaign and we wanna make sure the keyword is really aligned with the conversion experience, what are some other cases where a landing page or using a tool like Unbounce may be most useful?

Stefan Mancevski: Yeah, so one of the biggest things that Unbounce does is it lets you test something without making massive, massive changes to our website. I think one of the biggest mistakes that a lot of startups and even enterprises make is they commit tons and tons and tons of their resources into building out their website without having any idea whether it will actually work. It's the same approach as with, like, an MVP for ... a minimum viable product for a startup, you build the smallest and most lightweight version of what you want to test out, then you test it with the market. If the market responds well, then you build it into a full, proper product.

The same approach kind of lands with Unbounce, it's ... you can, instead of building out an entirely new website, you can build that same design from a PSD, directly into Unbounce, and that'll take a lot less time than coding up an entirely new website. Especially since a lot of the back-end for lead generation is built directly into their system, and so once you figure out from that Unbounce test that, hey, this new design actually works better than our homepage, then you can start full implementation of that new design into a new homepage.

Jayme Tsutsuse: How often does it happen where there's an amazing new design, we think it's beautiful, and then we test it and it doesn't perform? How often does that happen?

Stefan Mancevski: About, probably half the time, I'd say. This is why A/B testing is so important, it's like, you can look at something and say, "Wow, that's gorgeous and it's definitely gonna perform." But until you actually test it, you have no idea that that's the case.

As a data-driven marketing agency, we wanna make sure we're following what the numbers actually say. If we don't have any numbers we need to generate them, and we need to do it in the most lightweight and the most cost-effective way possible. Unbounce pages for our brand new design are the way to go with that.

Jayme Tsutsuse: All right. Thank you for showing us around these five tools, really interesting stuff here. If someone wants to get in touch with you with any questions, where can they do that?

Stefan Mancevski: They can email me at Stefan, S T E F A N, at Ladder.io I'll get back to you either on Twitter or by email, so yeah, feel free to drop me a line.

Jayme Tsutsuse: Awesome, thank you so much, Stefan.